Aug 06 2008
Messianic Jewish Conversion - A Natural Progression for any Believer in Messiah Yeshua
Unlike all other sects of Judaism, Messianic Judaism views all believers in Yeshua as full-fledged Covenant members the moment they accept Yeshua as the Messiah, and submit to Him which means to also submit to his Torah teaching.
Those who do, have a right (and responsibility) to fully participate in the Torah that God gave to Israel; and as a new convert to HaDerech (The Way / Messianic Judaism) aligns his lifestyle with that of the Torah and how Rabbi Yeshua lives it out, then circumcision (if a male), commitment to the Torah, and even going through a mikvah in Yeshua’s name will eventually be the fruit.
That this process of getting circumcised, keeping the Torah, and going through a mikvah is also shared by other sects of Judaism as a means of conversion to Judaism, lends weight that this is a natural progression for any sincere believer in Messiah Yeshua as they continue to submit to the Torah. This process is purely scriptural and is the means by which converts to Messianic Judaism can clearly identify with the greater Jewish community as “Jewish.”
The only difference between conversion into Judaism through HaDerech, and conversion into say orthodox Judaism (or any other sect of Judaism), then, is in the certifying authority. Who in Messianic Judaism has the authority to certify that converts have been circumcised, keep the Torah, and have gone through a mikveh? Other Messianic Jews! How so? Because the first Messianic Jews were themselves recognized as the certifying authority for converts to the sect: the Jerusalem Council, made up of the first disciples of the Messiah and our Master Rebbe, Yeshua himself. Thus we have the Messiah, Yeshua, as our certifying authority.
Other Messianic Jews! How so? Because the first Messianic Jews were themselves recognized as the certifying authority for converts to the sect: the Jerusalem Council, made up of the first disciples of the Messiah and our Master Rebbe, Yeshua himself. Thus we have the Messiah, Yeshua, as our certifying authority<<<
By your definition Christians become the determinants of who is Jewish! How is this not replacement theology?
Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Jews also determine apart from one another who is Jewish. So how is that not replacement theology? In the same way then, Messianic Jews determine that a Messianic Jew is Jewish.
In the same way then, Messianic Jews determine that a Messianic Jew is Jewish.<<
Its not the same way. Its not a matter of “what” its a matter of “who”. In such aggregate statements it comes down to a collection of individuals. WHO are the “messianic Jews” as individuals who determine that a Messianic Jew is Jewish? This is quite problematic as I see it and quite different form the normative branches of Judaism.
While the above branches have significant differences amongst each others, the standards were set by people who were unambigiously Jewish. In addition the leadership of these branches is for the most part unambiguously Jewish and would be recognized as such by an overwhelming majority of Jews. In addition the leadership which sets these standards has at least by history a chain of descent of smicha to someone recognized as an authority by most Jews.
The situation in institutional Messianic Judaism is not the same. You say that
You seem to be saying that the Messiah Yeshua is the certifying authority. That sounds good but who is the conduit for his will in these matters? What is their claim to authority in these matters? For that matter what is their claim to Judaism? From what I have observed, it tends to be specifically that they are recognized as authorities in Christianity and by virtue of that have self authenticated as Jews and as rabbis. I can cite examples if you wish but will attempt to avoid being too specific to avoid Lashan Hara. Especially at this season.
>WHO are the “messianic Jews” as individuals who determine that a Messianic Jew is Jewish? This is quite problematic as I see it and quite different form the normative branches of Judaism.>
That is the issue. The original disciples of Yeshua were all Jewish. The Beit Din they composed was all Jewish. The Messiah himself is Jewish. They never split from Judaism. In this generation, just as smicha has been lost from Moses, the transmission of smicha from the original Messianic Jewish Beit Din is thought lost from Messianic Judaism, however this is disputable. The case can be made that there has been a successive transmission of recognizing convert’s identity, and thus a continual chain of Messianic Jewish witness of the repentance and immersion of converts from the first disciples, throughout the centuries to the present day.
The difference between the sect of Messianic Judaism and other sects of Judaism in regards to who we believe certifies our conversion, is that we also believe Yeshua Rebbeinu lives in us by the Spirit of God, and thus it seems that this ultimate reliance on his authority comes across as self-authentication. This may in fact be the personal argument, but then again, it’s no different than claiming to be Jewish as an Orthodox convert who relies on a Beit Din of Jews who themselves believe they are Jewish because their genealogy somehow proves it - neglecting to mention of course the fact that no Jew’s genealogy today goes back before the second temple period (if that far at all) with which to prove descent from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So Messianic Jews aren’t the only Jews who are self-authenticating their Jewish identity, according to your argument. At best my geneology goes back 15 generations of Jews, but who’s to say there isn’t a gentile before then? What can be said of any other Jew today? So then who is a Jew? In all reality today, it apparently is one who identifies as one.
In regards to smicha, Yeshua commanded his disciples (in accordance with the Torah) to make disciples, immerse them, and teach them to obey all that he has commanded (which is the Torah). When one realizes that a Messianic convert’s immersion most likely was witnessed by others who themselves were immersed by other converts who were immersed by converts…, and so on as far as it traces back, it becomes apparent that as long as Christianity has existed making converts (making disciples, immersing them in the name of Yeshua, and teaching them to obey all he commanded), and no matter how anti-semitic and self-removed from Judaism it made itself out to be throughout the last two millennia, converts carrying on the authority to identify others as converts has in fact existed, if not in the name of Judaism, then certainly in the name of Christianity. It was the later generations of Christians that rejected identifying with Judaism, yet it is said and still holds true that once a Jew, always a Jew. So even though Christianity holds to an anti-Jewish identification (or worse, a replacement identification), it is still Jewish at its inception, still Jewish in the teaching that spawned it, still Jewish in its makeup, and still Jewish in its continuance (no matter how apostate it is), and thus the converts it makes are covenant members, able to recognize other covenant members, and then become Jewish (if they get circumcised for whatever reason, keep the covenant by default of their obedience, and be immersed in the name of Messiah Yeshua in order to identify with him and his Judaism).
That Paul himself was most likely a member of the Sanhedrin under Gamliel, receiving smicha, and himself making disciples once he was convinced Yeshua was the Messiah, and followed the teachings of the sect of Judaism known as HaDerech; the argument can even be made that the smicha of Moses which he had, has been transmitted throughout the history of Christianity to this very day - found in the very conversion practice (repentance to the Torah, immersion in Messiah) of Messianic Judaism which he did for the gentiles who would listen to him.
If so, then within Messianic Judaism today, the so-called “gentile Christians” who have been recognized down through the centuries by those who were ultimately recognized by Paul as converts to HaDerech, may very well carry within their practice of witnessing conversions to “Christianity” the very authority to recognize a convert to Judaism, as passed down from Paul, as passed down by Gamliel, as passed down through the ages from Moses.
There may even be a second and third source for the smicha the Sanhedrin had within the disciples of Yeshua in the sect of HaDerech, since Nicodemus, and Joseph of Aramethea may have also been on the Sanhedrin, and would have transmitted that authority to recognize converts in the disciples from the nations they made - in addition to recognizing the converts from the gentiles of those that others within HaDerech made, including those whom Paul made.
I know it seems a bit preposterous, that someone carries the smicha of Moses, and the Messiah, without knowing it, and that they transmit the authority to recognize a Jewish convert once they witness their immersion, and transmit the simcha for authoritative decisions concerning halakha, when they themselves make a disciple able to make other disciples; but I am not entirely uncertain that this is all that far-fetched.
If so, then within Messianic Judaism today, the so-called “gentile Christians” who have been recognized down through the centuries by those who were ultimately recognized by Paul as converts to HaDerech, may very well carry within their practice of witnessing conversions to “Christianity” the very authority to recognize a convert to Judaism, as passed down from Paul, as passed down by Gamliel, as passed down through the ages from Moses.<<<<
Its not preposterous if you grant your premise. I actually think you have thought this through better than most of the Messianic leaders I have read on this subject.
I think the particulars can be contested and will be thinking about it. However without getting in to them, will you grant the point that what you are talking about here is by definition supercessionism to a greater degree than what we normally see in Christianity? I mean you seem to be saying that Christian superiority extends to deciding who is and who isnt a Jew. Thats something even the Catholic church doesnt claim. Frankly I commend you for your honesty even if I dont agree with you. Its better than 99% of what I see written by most MJ leaders.
Have to go now.
Be well.
that someone carries the smicha of Moses, and the Messiah, without knowing it, and that they transmit the authority to recognize a Jewish convert once they witness their immersion, and transmit the simcha for authoritative decisions concerning halakha, when they themselves make a disciple able to make other disciples; but I am not entirely uncertain that this is all that far-fetched.<<<<<<
Ok. Before I go I need you to clarify who that “someone” is. Are we talking about any Jew, any believer who “carries the spirit” or do these folks have to have some sort of institutional standing as leaders? If you are saying it has to be an institutionally sanctioned body, I am still not quite clear if you are saying that that instituional sanction, coming as it does from the Chrisitan Church ( as is true of almost 101% of most Messianic “rabbis”) is where the authority is transmitted. ( Which appears to me to be the position of most MJ writings on this subject). If so then I repeat my point above with intensification: Is this not by definition Supercessionism of the highest order?
Look forward to your resonse and will be reflecting on your comments.
>Is this not by definition Supercessionism of the highest order?>
It would only be supercessionism if the rest of Jewry couldn’t use the same argument for their authority to recognize who is Jew. As such, the idea I presented above can in fact be equally said of Judaism proper - in that authorities exist today, who recognize who is and is not a Jew, and these authorities are themselves Jews of Jews or Jews of converts who were themselves converted by Jews in a chain of authority transmitted through the generations from those who were Jews on the Sanhedrin. I am hoping to simply add to the claim that Messianic Judaism has the same right to recognize its converts as Jewish, equally, if not more so*, than the rest of Judaism.
*We claim that Messiah Yeshua gave the authority to recognize who is a disciple/convert to his immediate talmidim before he left.
Yet this should not be taken to mean that Messiah Yeshua took any authority away from anyone in order to give it solely to his talmidim. On the contrary, I find that what he gave to his talmidim was an authority that simply co-existed with the authorities of Judaism proper. To believe that he removed the authority from the Sanhedrin to give it to his talmidim would indeed be supercessionism of the highest order, but this is not my stance, nor the stance of the scriptural witness we have today.
In fact, the accounts of the talmidim do indicate that they continued to submit to the Sanhedrin on issues that did not contradict faith in Messiah for 40 years after Messiah Yeshua ascended into heaven. We find even that Paul himself recognized Jewish converts who had converted to Judaism by other non-HaDerech Pharisaic authorities.
Regarding halachic authority, I think it can be argued that it too was given to Yeshua’s talmidim in co-existence with the already established Sanhedrin, as is testified when he said he gave them the power to “bind and loose” (make halakha), yet later tells his talmidim that the “Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses” and to “obey everything they tell you to do.” So then it should come as no suprise that we find this very thing happening in the Jerusalem Council concerning their halakha for Gentiles who were turning to God through the teachings of the talmidim of Yeshua, yet their very members are submitted to the authority of the Sanhedrin in all issues except only in those which contradict walking out their mission of obedience to Messiah Yeshua, as we see Peter responding to the Sanhedrin’s order for them to cease teaching in Yeshua’s name, by saying, “we must obey God, rather than men.” This could be taken as a pompus, misguided statement on Peter’s part, or it could be taken that he really knew what he talking about after having seen the risen Messiah, as he continues his answer by saying “we are witnesses of these things…” thus proving his ultimate loyalty to the King (Messiah Yeshua). I find it interesting that he was willing to say this, even though he knew his life would be in jeopardy for the answer. In the end, he did submit to their authority to flog him, without putting up a fight, counting it worthy to suffer shame for the King. He knew what he had, he knew what he was given, and he knew what he saw, and he knew he was responsible to uphold the Torah to the very end. So no, I don’t see supercessionism at all in this. I simply see an additional appointment to authority granted by Messiah to his talmidim, which co-exists with the other authorities that already existed within greater Judaism of which they were still called to submit to.
I have not put together a study on this in any way shape or form, as this whole series of responses to your questions is merely off the top of my head. You bring up good questions, and I invite you to share them on our forum if you’d like a greater response from an audience of many with varied opinions. The forum can be found here: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/midrash
>Before I go I need you to clarify who that “someone” is.>
In addition to the rabbis of greater Judaism, I also believe it could be anyone who has repented to the Torah, and has been immersed in the name of Yeshua, who themselves were witnessed by others recursively meeting either of those same qualifications.
It would only be supercessionism if the rest of Jewry couldn’t use the same argument for their authority to recognize who is Jew. As such, the idea I presented above can in fact be equally said of Judaism proper - in that authorities exist today, who recognize who is and is not a Jew, and these authorities are themselves Jews of Jews or Jews of converts who were themselves converted by Jews in a chain of authority transmitted through the generations from those who were Jews on the Sanhedrin. I am hoping to simply add to the claim that Messianic Judaism has the same right to recognize its converts as Jewish, equally, if not more so*, than the rest of Judaism. <<<<<<
For better or worse the “rest of Jewry” consists of Jewish people who the entire world has regarded as Jews. Not just Jewish authorities. And until it became chic in Christian circles to think otherwise those people who thought themselves Jews suffered for being Jewish many of whom dearly wished that they could remove the marks of their Jewishness. Now you want to argue that they arent legitimately Jewish?
Do we want to argue as Arther Koessler did that the people who we think are Ashkenazi Jews are in fact the descendants of converts from a Turkish tribe? ( The population genetic data tends to disprove this BTW). If so then I think we get to some pretty absurd conclusions. The “rest of Jewry” have faithfully committed themselves to the covenant and Torah for 2000 years and have suffered for it. At this point without definitive DNA testing I think the burden of proof is on those who want to argue that we arent “really Jews”. And if we are not “really Jews” then those who believe in Jesus are the “real Jews”? As real if not more real than the Jewish people?). By this logic wouldnt the pope have as much or more authority to determine who is a Jew as a Jewish authority? Isnt that absurd and isnt that the definition of supercessionism? ( I call it ‘neo supercessionism” to distinguish it from that practiced by say the Catholic Church
*We claim that Messiah Yeshua gave the authority to recognize who is a disciple/convert to his immediate talmidim before he left.
Yet this should not be taken to mean that Messiah Yeshua took any authority away from anyone in order to give it solely to his talmidim. On the contrary, I find that what he gave to his talmidim was an authority that simply co-existed with the authorities of Judaism proper. To believe that he removed the authority from the Sanhedrin to give it to his talmidim would indeed be supercessionism of the highest order, but this is not my stance, nor the stance of the scriptural witness we have today. <<<<
Actually Stern argues precisely this in his NT commentary on the subject.
In fact, the accounts of the talmidim do indicate that they continued to submit to the Sanhedrin on issues that did not contradict faith in Messiah for 40 years after Messiah Yeshua ascended into heaven.<<<<<<,
I agree with you on this.
We find even that Paul himself recognized Jewish converts who had converted to Judaism by other non-HaDerech Pharisaic authorities.
Regarding halachic authority, I think it can be argued that it too was given to Yeshua’s talmidim in co-existence with the already established Sanhedrin, as is testified when he said he gave them the power to “bind and loose” (make halakha), yet later tells his talmidim that the “Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses” and to “obey everything they tell you to do.”<<<<
I cut some of what you wrote for the sake of space. It seems to me that you are arguing that the early Talmidim of Yeshua gave place to Jewish authority for Halachic matters which did not bear on NC mandates. I think this a sensible line of reasoning. To me to argue otherwise is analogous to saying that a believer can drive 65 in a 25 MPH zone because they dont agree with Roe V Wade. Its absurd.
So no, I don’t see supercessionism at all in this. I simply see an additional appointment to authority granted by Messiah to his talmidim, which co-exists with the other authorities that already existed within greater Judaism of which they were still called to submit to.<<<<
In what way does that authority “co exist”? See my analogy above. Do we have multiple supreme courts in the USA? No. I fail to see how Christians have gained authority to rule on Jewish Halachic matters. BTW from what I see not only the diciples but Yeshua himself deferred to Jewish precedents when they did not contradict NC revelations that he was bringing forth and also even when he wished to modify “the constitution”. It is a supreme irony that the central symbol of the NC itself is based upon and cannot be understood except in the light of the oral tradition.
( Where do we read in the Bible of cups of wine at passover?) <grin
I have not put together a study on this in any way shape or form, as this whole series of responses to your questions is merely off the top of my head. <<<<<
As are my questions.
You bring up good questions, and I invite you to share them on our forum if you’d like a greater response from an audience of many with varied opinions.<<<<<
I actually appreciate the dialogue here as I find you to be quite thoughtful on these matters. It is refreshing. I can go go to the forum if you wish. However it has been my experience that such complicated matters when opened up to varied opinions can soon degenerate into discussions that shed more heat than light.
The forum can be found here: http://jerusalemcouncil.org/midrash
In addition to the rabbis of greater Judaism, I also believe it could be anyone who has repented to the Torah, and has been immersed in the name of Yeshua, who themselves were witnessed by others recursively meeting either of those same qualifications.<<<<
You mean I would have the same authority under your system to convert someone to Judaism as a nationally sanctioned “Messianic Rabbi”? Please allow me to point out that while it has been my unfortuntate experience that most of them have less knowledge and interest in Jewish Halacha than I do, I frankly do not consider myself to have the necessary knowledge by any stretch of the imagination to perform this function. Especially without the direction of a community of people with far more knowledge than I have. This is why I think the current move in MJ to establish “rabbinic councils” and “Halacha” is a bit Chutzpadik. And frankly they seem more concerned about giving Jewish cover to Christian ministers who have their own agendas than about Judaism and Jewish people.
Of course not.
Messianic Judaism (and I would venture to say other sects of Judaism as well) does not have the right to remove the identity which others have suffered and died for. Although this is a personal argument, (often akin to calling oneself an American citizen simply because they fought and died claiming to be one or accused of being one - but often this counter-argument to a Messianic Jew identifying as a Jew, assumes that Messianic Judaism is not a Judaism at all), I think it’s not all that far fetched as a possible reason to assume someone is Jewish then if after all that they have endured they still claim to be Jewish, since absolute proof of Jewish identity is not available to anyone if one relegates it to a genetic exercise, or relegates it to a group inclusiveness certified by those who claim genetic exercise.
This was merely an observation. Obviously the halakhic authority that Yeshua gave to his talmidim did not override the Sanhedrin. If anything, I believe there might be a case that the Jerusalem Council could be what may classify a lower court of the Sanhedrin, unsanctioned of course, which chose to submit to the Sanhedrin on national halakhic issues while overriding other issues pertinent to obedience to the Messiah. This is where I stand, and this is where I see any global Messianic council going in the direction of, no matter how chutzpadik its founder and pushers may try to make it out to be. I think it would be wrong for it to assume it alone is the sole halakhic authority for the Jewish people, since HaShem has certainly been faithful in preserving a remnant of the people of Israel apart from just HaDerech, throughout history.
Depending on if you are recognized in your sect of Judaism to be qualified to convert someone, then yes. I know it seems strange, if not a bit ironic, and to me I think it sounds totally crazy, but I think there might be a case that can be made that even the Pope might be recognized within Messianic Judaism all the way back to the original talmidim of Yeshua, with the authority to convert people; as making disciples is the sect’s primary responsibility after we ourselves are declared as Yeshua’s disciples. In this light even, however, this would relegate the Crusades, as brutal and dehumanizing as they were, apparently then as a matter of one group of misguided apostate Jews forcing other Jews to bend to its halakhic authority concerning who is a Jew. I’d throw up my hands at this one, if only there wasn’t the possibility that the Crusades could be seen in this light. But anyways, it’s too touchy a subject for even myself since my own family was persecuted by the Inquisition.
And sadly this is true. One of my goals is to increase knowledge and interest in Jewish halacha since it is the only factor I can see that will help unify the various Messianic sects, and possibly one day help reunify Messianic Judaism with greater Judaism.
I certainly agree that setting up “Messianic” rabbinical councils is a bit premature at this stage, and possibly for quite some time, and I think developing halacha apart from greater Judaism is a trap that will only seek to separate us further from greater Judaism. Personally with JerusalemCouncil.org, Ive been working with other Messianic rabbis, teachers, and lay people to seek to publish only the halacha of Messiah Yeshua as relevant to understanding why his halacha was different in the areas where it is documented that it was. If anything however, we are finding that his halacha hardly differed with what is known as a brand of very charismatic Pharisaism, which today could be classified as a form of Chassidic Judasim.
I may not be online today as much as normal as I’m off to prepare for the Sabbath. So if I don’t hear from you until next week, Shabbat Shalom!
Just a few observations that you can defer till next week or address today.
but often this counter-argument to a Messianic Jew identifying as a Jew, assumes that Messianic Judaism is not a Judaism at all)<<<
It the messianic Jew is otherwise Jewish then this would not be a counter argument. The argument is against the ersatz Jews who have risen to leadership ranks and the ersatz Judaism which they espouse. Sorry but that is how I have seen it.
We both have to prepare for Shabbat and I agree with backing this down at least for the weekend. Especially given that this Sunday is Tisha B’av it might be less than seemly to continue an intellectual conversation that I must admit to finding quite interesting. It is a pleasure to converse with someone who has thought these matters through a bit.
This leads me to a practical question: How do the hypothetical and real converts you describe relate to Tisha B’av? This is a litmus test to me of whether someone isnt or is Jewish BTW. There really isnt anything positive or chic about this observance. Rather it is one which emphasizes our role in our collective suffering and degradation as a people. I cant see how someone who is not part and parcel of the Jewish people having a relationship to this. ( The hypothetical Jewish convert made by the pope seems to me to be by definition incapable of relating)
I think it’s not all that far fetched as a possible reason to assume someone is Jewish then if after all that they have endured they still claim to be Jewish, since absolute proof of Jewish identity is not available to anyone if one relegates it to a genetic exercise, or relegates it to a group inclusiveness certified by those who claim genetic exercise.<<<<
Most of the orthodox I have talked to on this subject fully admit to the possibilty that they may have non Jews in their genetic pool.
In what way does that authority “co exist”?
If anything, I believe there might be a case that the Jerusalem Council could be what may classify a lower court of the Sanhedrin, unsanctioned of course, which chose to submit to the Sanhedrin on national halakhic issues while overriding other issues pertinent to obedience to the Messiah. <<<<<
That would be a start and certainly an improvement over what I see happening in the rest of MJ. And would not be that far off from where the rest of Judaism is.
Depending on if you are recognized in your sect of Judaism t<<<<<
How many people does it take for me to organize a sect to recognize me? Is a Minyan enough? ( I dont have plans to do this. Just asking). Does the minyan have to consist of Jews or can they be “converts”???? I see a potential circular argument here and am merely trying to draw some conclusions as to where it might lead.
But anyways, it’s too touchy a subject for even myself since my own family was persecuted by the Inquisition.<<<<
So you can see the absurdity in this very well. We cant have inquisitors or Nazis or cossacks being declared Jewish by Christian religious authorities. I am happy that the Catholic church has begun to acknowledge its mistakes and repent. I dont wish to see them given this as a way out. I wish that MJ leaders would learn from the Pope and be a little more respectful of Jews and Judaism.
And sadly this is true. One of my goals is to increase knowledge and interest in Jewish halacha .<<<<
Certainly this is a worthy goal. You will have to deal with some pretty strong egos.
If anything however, we are finding that his halacha hardly differed with what is known as a brand of very charismatic Pharisaism, which today could be classified as a form of Chassidic Judasim<<<<
I think I agree with you here. And maybe we should take a second look at Chassidus as possibly a better framework to proceed within than Charismatic Christianity.
Shabbat Shalom!<<<
you too.
Just a short reply, I’ll address other parts next week:
I certainly agree with you that it could and should be a worthwhile litmus test for those who wish to claim Jewish identity. If in fact Christendom was Jewish (and if it were, then it’s terribly apostate), then I guess one could only conclude that their lack of observance of anything Jewish, let alone Tisha B’Av, is a matter of inappropriate behavior for a Jew - or rather a serious lack of appropriate behavior, instead of it being a total lack of Jewish identity. Much like any other apostate Jew who doesn’t even attend shul, even on Yom Kippor.
This is why I believe I am called to teach the message of repentance and submission to Messiah Yeshua, the King, who I believe calls us all to keep the Torah, which includes submitting to one another and to the authorities he’s established from Moses to the present day. May this season lead us all to make teshuvah. Good shabbos.
Good shabbos.
let alone Tisha B’Av, is a matter of inappropriate behavior for a Jew - or rather a serious lack of appropriate behavior, instead of it being a total lack of Jewish identity. Much like any other apostate Jew who doesn’t even attend shul, even on Yom Kippor.<<<<
How are they going to sit in the dust and mourn for relatives they dont have?
A convert to Judaism takes on a whole new family identity. If one chooses not to mourn for their new family, it doesn’t make them any less part of the family, although such an action is considered highly disrespectful, and even goes against Rebbe Yeshua’s charge to mourn with those who mourn.
A convert to Judaism takes on a whole new family identity<<<<
I agree with this. If the convert becomes Jewish they regard the Jewish people as their family. This means identifying with the Jewish people in disgrace and dishonor as well as in blessing and honor. If a convert is willing to take on the whole package including the angst that goes with being Jewish I for one believe them to have joined the Jewish nation. That counts for little as I am a Simple Jew and not a rabbi. However I as an individual Jew would be happy to embrace such a person as a fellow Jew.
Ths is a difficult psychological transition and few are able to make this adjustment. Christian leaders seeking to secure Jewish bonefides in order to advance their “ministry” are unlikely to wish to take this burden on if they truly understand what it entails. I have met very few people who have made this transitition sucessfully. Those who did converted to Judaism through the front door: Through an authority recognized by the Jewish community.
I have found this to be true. Convincing apostate Jews (in this case for sake of discussion: the Christians) as to their responsibility to the Covenant, and their responsibility to the people of Israel, has been an uphill educational battle we at JerusalemCouncil.org are just beginning to understand the work ahead of us.
All other authorities in Judaism, however, are pressed to deny conversion to anyone who claims Yeshua is the Messiah, let alone those who believe that he is the Word of HaShem (and by implication is divine by that definition only). That this spills over into a discussion on deity is often necessary but the result is sad since the divinity issue has been clouded by years of pagan-influence in the church’s history to the point that when one answers “yes” to the “is Jesus divine” question, the only other thought in the mind of the beit din supervising the conversion is that such a person is an idolater, and thus not worthy of being converted.
The understanding of what the Messianic means with his answer to the question, “Is Jesus divine” is clouded by 1700 year old Christian refrains that say over and over again that “Jesus is God” - an overly simplistic claim that has no support in scripture for its full implication. As a Messianic Jew, I can say Yeshua is divine based on just what the Torah alone says (I can say he is HaShem), without having to add to that definition that he is also God in all his fullness. I can say he is HaShem who we interact with and do not die. He is the Memra, etc. But to say he is God in all his fullness is ridiculous and goes against scripture that teaches otherwise, and in my view it turns the statements of the witnesses of Yeshua around to say more than what they really mean.
Therefore I instruct all potential converts to emphasize that we only believe what scripture says of Messiah: that he is the Word of HaShem, is called HaShem, but not Eloheim - not God himself in all his fullness. To give an answer beyond scripture, beyond this, and add to that definition that he is also God in all his fullness, shows that such a person believes scripture to be insufficient to explain who Yeshua is.
I believe Christianity has been wrong to ignore the manhood of the Messiah, at the same time that I believe greater Judaism has been wrong to ignore the divinity of the Messiah. Again, part of our drive at JerusalemCouncil.org is to cause both to make teshuvah on the matter.
When it comes to finding what you call a “front door” to conversion (that is to mean a “front door” is a converting authority recognized by greater Judaism), the potential convert is often left to either deny the scriptures and believe Yeshua is not the Messiah, let alone the Word of HaShem; or choose to give up and not get converted through that “front door” at all. I should however argue that I believe Messianic Judaism to be a valid front door, even if it is very messy in its maturity, and not popular at all in greater Judaism (or it could be that these viewpoints I’ve expressed just aren’t all that well-known to those in greater Judaism who have influence in these matters). I would hope that as JerusalemCouncil.org and other groups continue to study these matters for themselves, and help bring down the unnecessary barriers that divide HaDerech from other sects of Judaism, that eventually conversions to Messianic Judaism by certain authorities could be recognized by greater Judaism. Until then, these discussions and these groups are all we (Messianic Jews) have to legitimize continuing to make teshuvah - as Jews, even if all we have is a self-authenticating identity at this point. The cost of identifying as a Jew is high, and as we educate converts on our conversion document, the cost of identifying as a follower of HaDerech is even higher. That we instruct potential converts as to the costs of their conversion as far as their identity within HaDerech within greater Judaism, is something we are doing our best to communicate. Yet we do this while also following the judgment of our first Av Beit Din, Yaakov ha-Tzaddik “We should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.” And if anything, the application of this judgment has been most successful.
Shalom.
If you ever hope to get a hearing for you views on the divinity of Yeshua (BTW I dont believe this to be the most problematic area of disagreement with mainstream Judaism for a Jew. I think the problem of original sin is a much more thorny issue although less of a hot button issue. ) MJ has to clear the cobwebs from the other issues I have discussed.
With regard to conversion, let me back track since the deity issue is a separate one. I will only pause to say that it is clear that you have done some thinking about this issue Jewishly and I commend you and would like to discuss this with you some more in a separate context. Suffice it to say that MJ institutionally really has several constituancies it must address on this issue. This includes the Jews who were told that accepting Jesus as personal savior was not only compatible with Judaism but would make them better able to fulfill the covenant responsibilities of said Jews. This is a separate issue than that of the non Jews who are interested in becoming associated with the covenant. I maintain that having failed instituionally in addressing this issue with the Jews who have sacrificed their identitity family ties and covenant responsibilitiies, MJ institutions have a moral obligation to put the fate of non Jews in second place.
This they have not done.
Frankly I have no problem with non Jews participating in Jewish life to the extent that it doesnt obscure and cloud the needs and responsibilties of Jews. If for example the conversios you describe were content to sit in a pew and learn Torah form a Jewish POV I see a possible positive influence. This is why I think the whole hubbub about “two house theology” ( Is that what you espouse? ) is a red herring.
The problem as I see it is that many of those seeking conversion are already in “ministries” as “Messianic Rabbis”. These are folks who graduated from Christian seminaries and are not studying at “Messianic Yeshivot” such as MJTI for “ordination” and “conversion”. They are writing books and attempting to establish Halacha for Jews. This is unacceptable and not related to the issue of the divinity of Jesus except tangentially due to the marginalization of the Jews who accept this doctrine by the rest of the Jewish community. The fact remains that those Jews still retain Jewish responsibilities under Halacha and the non Jews do not.
When those non Jews ( including the children of intermarried converted Christian Jewish fathers) reached positions of power in MJ they have attempted to interpret Halacha for the more marginalized Jews. This is a Shanda! I am talking about concrete Halachic issues. How we Daven. What Blessings are said over candles bread etc. They have no business making these ignorant rulings.
I would like to see as a rule for any of these non Jews seeking conversion a five year period in which they have to live as Jews under the supervision of a genuine Jewish rabbi before they seek to lead and tell Jews how to live as Jews. That would lend more credance to this whole movement towards “conversion”.
Finally I dont accept that MJ conversion is analogous to Reform or Conservative conversion. In MJ there is a stream that MJ is “true biblical Judaism” and superior to “rabbinic Judaism”. This isnt Judaism and is dictated by Christian beliefs and is condescending and superior. As long as this attitude characterizes MJ institutions they forfeit a right to a hearing by the Jewish community at large.
and are not studying at “Messianic Yeshivot” such as MJTI for “ordination” and “conversion”<<<
correction. I meant that they “are studying” for ordination and conversion.
The Jews for Jesus refrain that a Messianic Jew is a “complete Jew” is a term I find offensive, and is no doubt a goad, and one in the wrong direction (and neither do any of us at JerusalemCouncil.org identify with Jews for Jesus). I find it unnecessary to use such terms as I believe it is highly ignorant of what it truly means to be a Jew at best, or anti-semitic at worst. I believe many an opportunity for reconciliation has been marred by such careless statements. It’s like using the term “Greek mindset” to dis one’s approach to scripture (as opposed to a Hebrew mindset), without realizing that one may in fact be speaking to someone who is Greek! No doubt the majority of Messianic Jews today would happily claim that being a disciple of Rabbi Yeshua makes us feel like our eyes have been opened to the scriptures, and that our understanding of what we are doing when obeying the Torah, carries with it a knowledge of its significance. Yeshua himself said that when a teacher of the law comes to him, he is like one who brings out treasures from his storehouse both old and new. I would hardly call this experience a “completion of Judaism,” however. If anything, a teacher of the Torah who turns to Yeshua realizes just how bright Judaism shines.
This I think is actually where we may diverge, but only in definition. After all, Christians do preach that every one else is going to hell. If that doesn’t put a pagan in second place, I don’t know what does. But I do understand your point. The concern that non-Jews are seeking to be associated with the covenant, without paying the cost to be identified with it as Jews, is unfair at worst, and bad theology at best. I do agree with you that Messianic Judaism has a problem with keeping Gentiles as Gentiles within their congregations, expecting them to participate in things only Jews can do. I find this to be breaking the clear commandments of scripture concerning circumcision, keeping the Torah, and immersion that all disciples of Yeshua will do if they truly love God. However, keep in mind it is from a covenant membership perspective that even I see within scripture the allowance for “non-Jew” participation in it, if only they lack circumcision, etc as I fully believe the Torah is given to all mankind, and to Israel for safekeeping and teaching it. There are, however, clearly Jewish things reserved only for those who have been converted, in the covenant - such as keeping Passover; which is what is celebrated throughout Christendom in various ways - but often in ignorance of the commandment to be circumcised.
By no means. I find it a distraction to the real issues. May there be those of the so-called “lost tribes” joining Messianic Judaism? Yes. Is it the reason so many Gentiles are drawn to Messianic Judaism? No. The reason so many Gentiles are draw to Messianic Judaism, and to Judaism in general is because (I believe) they have a real Jewish Messiah drawing them to be his disciples.
To a certain extent, again by definition only (that if Christians are Jews according to orthodox halakha - circumcised, oath of obedience to the Torah - who they see as Messah, immersion), we agree. Since there is halakha that only Jews can do as Jews. The uncircumcised may not participate. Pagans need not keep Sabbath, keep kosher, wear tzitzit to be reminded of HaShem’s commandments, although it is good for them to do so - they have more serious issues separating them from God such as idolatry and their other behaviors. Messiah Yeshua himself taught that there are weightier commandments to the Torah that must be done (without neglecting the so-called “lesser”) and the first he mentioned, is justice; then mercy, then faithfulness.
You are absolutely correct. It is Shanda! Messianic Judaism has no right to change how we Daven, or what Brachot we say. These are national halachot that have no contradiction with obedience to Messiah Yeshua, and should be done by all Messianic Jews. That is one of the goals of JerusalemCouncil.org - to discuss the halacha of the Messiah, and not necessarily the halacha of greater Judaism, except to get to the bottom of many weird changes to halacha some Messianics have opted for, and bring them back to the truth of the matter. Whenever Messianic Jews seek to make halacha apart from greater Judaism, we only separate ourselves further - but Yeshua himself was about tearing down such man-made separation, and we should heed his warning and teaching concerning the matter. He said very clearly that we should do what the “Pharisees who sit in the seat of Moses” tell us to do. There is no getting around it. If what we are told to do does not conflict with obedience to Yeshua - who himself keeps the Torah perfectly, we have no right to disrespect it, ignore it, and teach others to do the same.
I believe a move toward greater Messianic Jewish education is the next step. JerusalemCouncil.org, ffoz.org, and others exist to help do this very thing. A true disciple needs to be trained to be like his master. Only then can such a disciple make disciples for themselves. If Yeshua is our Rebbe, then we all have a long way to go.
It is ignorant of anyone to outright reject rabbinic Judaism, since Messianic Judaism is rabbinic. Yeshua is our rabbi, Paul was a rabbi, etc. Superiority is destructive to reconciliation and has no place in Messiah’s kingdom. Unfortunately this attitude is very pervasive in Messianic Judaism, and it is why I am not at all surprised at the opposition that has formed in Jewish communities in response to it.
The work ahead for myself and others, is huge. Only by the grace of God can the work produce fruit. This is my prayer, and is one of my most anticipated benedictions when I Daven: that of teshuvah.
This includes the Jews who were told that accepting Jesus as personal savior was not only compatible with Judaism but would make them better able to fulfill the covenant responsibilities of said Jews.
The Jews for Jesus refrain that a Messianic Jew is a “complete Jew”<<<<
I have found this attitude predominates in the so called “congregational movements” as well.
This I think is actually where we may diverge, but only in definition. After all, Christians do preach that every one else is going to hell. If that doesn’t put a pagan in second place,<<<<<<<
I dont want us to get confused by similar terminology. I do not believe that no Jews are second place citizens. I am saying that the obligation for service of the institutions of MJ is to the Jews that were brought into their midst by the above rhetoric. If as many claim resources and time is scarce then it stands to reason that MJ leadership should prioritize this issue first. They dont.
The concern that non-Jews are seeking to be associated with the covenant, without paying the cost to be identified with it as Jews, is unfair at worst, and bad theology at best.<<<<<
This is an issue that clearly should be dealt with. However it is secondary. The main issue is that Jews are not allowed to be Jews within MJ. Thats a point of basic intellectual honesty and pastoral responsibility.
The reason so many Gentiles are draw to Messianic Judaism, and to Judaism in general is because (I believe) they have a real Jewish Messiah drawing them to be his disciples.<<<<
I suppose this would have to be true. According to Maimonides this is part of the “job description” of Moshiach.
The fact remains that those Jews still retain Jewish responsibilities under Halacha and the non Jews do not.
To a certain extent, again by definition only (that if Christians are Jews according to orthodox halakha<<<<<
Again, I realize that these matters are controversial within MJ. However they concern me less if this doesnt have an impact on people who are Jews under Jewish Halacha. What people think about themselves by their interpretation of their sacred scriptures is really up to them if they are not idoloters grossly immoral etc. I realize that this is not your POV but it is close to the consensus in Judaism.
When those non Jews ( including the children of intermarried converted Christian Jewish fathers) reached positions of power in MJ they have attempted to interpret Halacha for the more marginalized Jews. This is a Shanda! I am talking about concrete Halachic issues. How we Daven. What Blessings are said over candles bread etc. They have no business making these ignorant rulings.
You are absolutely correct. It is Shanda! Messianic Judaism has no right to change how we Daven, or what Brachot we say. <<<<<
The fact is that instutional MJ HAS made these changes. And that they have taught Jews to follow their lead.
I would like to see as a rule for any of these non Jews seeking conversion a five year period in which they have to live as Jews under the supervision of a genuine Jewish rabbi before they seek to lead and tell Jews how to live as Jews. That would lend more credance to this whole movement towards “conversion”.
I believe a move toward greater Messianic Jewish education is the next step. <<<<
I dont agree. These people know enough to know they have changed basic rules of Halacha. The problem is they perceive themselves to have the authority to do so. This has gone unchallenged. The next step is to formally challenge their authority to make Halacha. That will take some guts. I dont see anyone willing to do it.
Finally I dont accept that MJ conversion is analogous to Reform or Conservative conversion. In MJ there is a stream that MJ is “true biblical Judaism” and superior to “rabbinic Judaism”. This isnt Judaism and is dictated by Christian beliefs and is condescending and superior. As long as this attitude characterizes MJ institutions they forfeit a right to a hearing by the Jewish community at large.
It is ignorant of anyone to outright reject rabbinic Judaism,<<<<<
They dont reject rabbinic Judaism. They believe that they stand on a platform outside of Judaism which is superior from which they can pick and choose which Halachot to observe. They seek to “improve” Halacha with “spirit led” innovations.
For example one major leader ( who is not Jewish by normal halachic standards) has publically stated that the Shema as a statement of faith needs to have a reference to Jesus as the messiah inserted into it. Furthermore it is the practice in the congregations “under submission” to him that at lest 2/3 of the Shema is truncated or eliminated altogether “because there isnt time”. Under what authority does this “rabbi” make these rules? Do you really believe that he or those like him is interested in being “educated” by genuine Jewish authorities?
I asked you earlier in a different post whether you light Chanuka and Shabbat candles and if so what Brechot you use/teach. I think it releveant to this discussion and would help me to understand you POV.
I do not believe that no Jews are second place citizens. <<<
Sorry. That should be “non Jews”
The Jews for Jesus refrain that a Messianic Jew is a “complete Jew”<<<<
Actually since Jews for Jesus does not make Halachic recommendations I think them actually less problematic. Unsuspecting Jews who do not know Jewish law will not be told they need to “submit” to the Halachic rulings of non Jewish “rabbis” in J for J since it is an openly Christian organization. I think this is more intellectually honest and thus less problematic.
This is the greatest and saddest point of contention I and many other Messianic Jews have with “Messianic Judaism.”
I am not entirely uncertain that it’s due to their knowledge of the Torah, however you could be right that it’s something else, such as their hermeneutic. I have met some Messianic Jews who claimed to know the Torah, only to ask them why their congregation is holding a barbecue out in the park on Shabbat - in clear violation of the expressed prohibition in Torah. Their reasoning? Because they’re not working (as in a 9-5 job). Oy. With that reasoning, I could light a fire, since I’m not a cook during the 6 days, and have someone sell the food, since they don’t sell things on the six days. And then when the Sabbath is over, we switch back to our “normal” work duties. Oy. An increase in Messianic Jewish education concerning proper biblical exegesis from a Jewish perspective, and and education to appreciate Jewish literature and input, I think, would help eliminate some of these misguided attempts at Torah observance that make the rest of Messianic Judaism look weird at best, profane at worst.
Which is akin to removing the rug from underneath one’s feet. I agree that it happens, and happens far too often.
We do, and we use the B’rechot in Hebrew of the Sefard Siddur published by Artscroll. We find no reason to diverge from the B’rechot written in it.
This is the greatest and saddest point of contention I and many other Messianic Jews have with “Messianic Judaism.”<<<<<
If you have a point of contention with them, why do you reconize their authority? BTW I observe that most of their authorities disagree with your view on Gentiles observing Torah? They seem to spend what time they do above ground on the web arguing against it.
I am not entirely uncertain that it’s due to their knowledge of the Torah, however you could be right that it’s something else, such as their hermeneutic.<<<<
Possibly the latter. However in either case there is an attitude problem. Read their publications on this point. Jews who want to practice Judaism are told they need to “grow to maturity”.
. An increase in Messianic Jewish education concerning proper biblical exegesis from a Jewish perspective, and and education to appreciate Jewish literature and input, I think, would help eliminate some of these misguided attempts at Torah observance that make the rest of Messianic Judaism look weird at best, profane at worst.<<<,
I fail to see how education can solve the problem. These people think they are “rabbis”. Some of them call themselves “apostles”. They are well established and well connected thank you very much. I dont see any motivation on their part to change what they regard as core convictions. Do you?
They believe that they stand on a platform outside of Judaism.
Which is akin to removing the rug from underneath one’s feet. I agree that it happens, and happens far too often<<<<
It wont happen if they are not empowered to do it.
I asked you earlier in a different post whether you light Chanuka and Shabbat candles and if so what Brechot you use/teach.
We do, and we use the B’rechot in Hebrew of the Sefard Siddur published by Artscroll. We find no reason to diverge from the B’rechot written in it.<<<
What do you think about the practice of cutting out portions of the Shema and inserting “NC distinctives” ?
What do you think about the practice of cutting out portions of the Shema and inserting “NC distinctives” ? <<<<
It’s adding to the Torah, a grossly clear abomination and profanation of the Torah. In short, current MJ attitudes towards greater Judaism is the matter that needs to be addressed first and foremost. Many still carry anti-Judaic anti-Torah baggage from whatever Christian denomination they came from. It’s a reality check that is needed.
You asked if I still recognize their authority to perform conversions to HaDerech - from witness to witness, I would have to say yes - but they just don’t realize what they are doing though, and how much empty of a life after conversion they are promoting to converts. I see a serious lack of discipleship to Yeshua on the part of those witnessing the conversions, a foundation which should always be the point of any conversion. Since I am not in a position of authority over the Messianic movement (who would ever want that job?), I can not declare one group’s conversion invalid. For me, as did the early talmidim of Yeshua, I look for the fruit of obedience to the Torah, to the Messiah who teaches the Torah. As long as someone is growing and maturing in their walk of obedience to Yeshua, scripture implores me to accept them. The moment someone refuses to go any further in their walk of maturity of obedience to the Torah, and the Messiah, scripture implores me that I approach them. And approaching them has been a very time-consuming task for me and others. There are so few of us, and the work is immense - but that has been the case for thousands of years. All of us cry for Moshiach now, and for our final redemption, but I fear that the “Church,” even Judaism isn’t close to being ready yet. Perhaps that is why the urgency for 2000 years has been “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” Our lives are far too short. And the King is coming.
What do you think about the practice of cutting out portions of the Shema and inserting “NC distinctives” ? <<<<
It’s adding to the Torah, a grossly clear abomination and profanation of the Torah<<<
Pretty strong words. And I agree. And I would assume that that would go double if that person publically taught this and REQUIRED those “in submission ” to him to follow suit? ( which he did. I have referenced this multiple times on the web).
Furthermore this indvidual would not be considered Jewish in any branch of Judaism except by his peers in MJ. Yet he is given a public platform accepted as a major leader and greatly deferred to by his peers. This in turn can not fail but to have an effect on the average Jew in congregations “in submission” to this leader. In fact it has and I have observed it.
Would you recommend that such a person continue to be publically recognized as a rabbi and leader in MJ? If so how could you justify that? If not what sort of actions would you recommend for his peers? Would that action be sufficient to protect innocent Jews from being misled?
Since I am not in a position of authority over the Messianic movement (who would ever want that job?), I can not declare one group’s conversion invalid.<<<,
not me. I’m a Simple Jew. However I make my opinion known. What is keeping you and others from doing that as well? You along with other peers could refuse to recognize their authority or their ordination. Thats what most Jewish rabbis would do.
These people are dependant upon being recognized as Jewish Rabbis in order to maintain the position of their ministries and in order to continue to maintain the flow of funds and power which their contact in the institutional church give them. If they were unable to market themselves as Jews, their influence would disappear.
This is a major reason I am opposed to this whole conversion movement within MJ BTW.
maturing in their walk of obedience to Yeshua, scripture implores me to accept them. <<<<<<
Accept them as leaders? Where is that written?
. All of us cry for Moshiach now, and for our final redemption, but I fear that the “Church,” even Judaism isn’t close to being ready yet. Perhaps that is why the urgency for 2000 years has been “repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.” Our lives are far too short, and the King is coming<<<<
If the time is short, and if redemption requires Jews to repent and be covenant faithful, then it would appear to me that failure to definitively address the work of leaders who are guiding Jews away from covenant faithfulness should be at the top fo the agenda. I have said before that I am not interested in purging or persecuting individuals. However certain IDEAS and statements need to be clearly out of bounds and purged from MJ.
I can not declare one group’s conversion invalid<<<
Sigh. I have addressed this point before as well .
I understand your point. For starters however, you could for purposes of your congregation. If they or those they converted showed up in your congregation would you grant them an Aliyah?
If a large enough group of you made the Halachically correct decision here it would send a message loud and clear.
scripture implores me to accept them<<<<
You can accept them as fellow believers and as brothers and sisters without accepting their credentials as rabbis or their bonefides as Jews. There is ample precedant for this in Christianity as well as Judaism. We cant use the scriptural mandate to accept and forgive as an excuse for addressing this very tough issue.
As the Midrash says “Kindess to the Wicked ends in cruelty to the Righteous”
The reticence of those who know better to deal with this issue ends up hurting Jewish people. I dont have all the answers, but if things are as urgent as you say then I think someone needs to get moving on this point.
This has an easy answer: no. Not in the least. Preaching that it’s ok to add to the Shema, is profane. Such a person is not growing and maturing in their walk of obedience to Torah and the Messiah. As I mentioned, if such a person is growing and maturing, I must accept them. If not, I must approach them with others, and ultimately reject them if they continue in disobedience. As such it’s been hard to find “others” willing to do the work required, which is why this site was setup - to attract the “others” I know exist out there. Unfortunately it seems not many are on the web.
That’s just it. I am curious as to what you would call large enough though. Our numbers are so few within Messianic Judaism, we could probably all fit in a single high school auditorium; and we are so scattered that not even the internet has been helpful in bringing the majority of us together.
The task currently has been for us to grow our numbers by approaching individuals as we can, reeducating them one by one. Often we have been rebuffed by current established MJ leadership, so much so that it’s much more effective to grow our numbers when we directly approach (or more effectively when we are approached ourselves by) individual Messianics, Christians, traditional Jews, or athiests “on the streets.” I assume this move towards teshuvah within Messianic Judaism will reach a critical mass of numbers where it will finally be seen as the orthodox voice to balance out and hopefully overtake a very liberal Messianic Jewish movement - but this remains to be seen.
From a practical, Torah-keeping standpoint, you are correct we can accept them without accepting their credentials for being a rabbi. We are at a point now where we still must respect their title, even if they want to be called “rabbi,” but this does not mean that we honor anything they do which contradicts the Torah. Often our obedience to the Torah, and the Messiah, separates us from them. It’s sad, but true.
If anything, when you Daven today, when it comes to the benediction concerning teshuvah, please remember us. Many give Messianic Judaism a bad name by claiming to be MJ and profaning the Torah. Some want to no longer associate as a “Messianic Jew,” but most want to redeem the name by confronting misconceptions, bad theologies, anti-semetic fears, and ignorant assumptions by doing what they can do in their spheres of influence, while at the same time, keeping in mind that it is more important to mature in and do Torah than to teach it, as that concept is emphasized in Pirkei Avot; and as we keep Torah, we will then also be able to teach it and make more disciples of Yeshua Rabbeinu Moshicheinu.
Would you recommend that such a person continue to be publically recognized as a rabbi and leader in MJ?
This has an easy answer: no. Not in the least. Preaching that it’s ok to add to the Shema, is profane. Such a person is not growing and maturing in their walk of obedience to Torah and the Messiah. As I mentioned, if such a person is growing and maturing, I must accept them. If not, I must approach them with others, and ultimately reject them if they continue in disobedience. As such it’s been hard to find “others” willing to do the work required, which is why this site was setup - to attract the “others” I know exist out there. Unfortunately it seems not many are on the web.
If a large enough group of you made the Halachically correct decision here it would send a message loud and clear.
That’s just it. I am curious as to what you would call large enough though. Our numbers are so few within Messianic Judaism, we could probably all fit in a single high school auditorium; and we are so scattered that not even the internet has been helpful in bringing the majority of us together.
The task currently has been for us to grow our numbers by approaching individuals as we can, reeducating them one by one. Often we have been rebuffed by current established MJ leadership,<<<<
From what I see there are two different issues they object to. One is the Torah observant issue. The other is the involvement of non Jews. There is a group out there ( I think we know who they are) who in principle say that they agree with you about point one but not about point two. Paradoxically they use point two as a starting point for their own “conversion” process which has not seen the light of a transparant open discussion and doesnt pass the sniff test. I have heard that they use concerns about Jewish identity as their grounds for objecting to point two. Yet they dont seem to have the same concerns about the MJ leaders who violate point one. If you dialogue with these people you can quote at least this one biological Jew as saying that I think the former are far more problematic to Jewish survival than the people like yourselves who disagree on point two. And you can challenge them to use the same energy to take on the MJ leaders who are anti rabbinic that they put into their various disputes about point two which I see on various MJ leadership sites and blogs. I personally think their opposition on point two is a straw man which prevents the proper focus on point one.
so much so that it’s much more effective to grow our numbers when we directly approach (or more effectively when we are approached ourselves by) individual Messianics, Christians, traditional Jews, or athiests “on the streets.” I assume this move towards teshuvah within Messianic Judaism will reach a critical mass of numbers where it will finally be seen as the orthodox voice to balance out and hopefully overtake a very liberal Messianic Jewish movement - but this remains to be seen.
You can accept them as fellow believers and as brothers and sisters without accepting their credentials as rabbis or their bonefides as Jews.
From a practical, Torah-keeping standpoint, you are correct we can accept them without accepting their credentials for being a rabbi. We are at a point now where we still must respect their title, even if they want to be called “rabbi,” but this does not mean that we honor anything they do which contradicts the Torah. Often our obedience to the Torah, and the Messiah, separates us from them. It’s sad, but true.
If anything, when you Daven today, when it comes to the benediction concerning teshuvah, please remember us. Many give Messianic Judaism a bad name by claiming to be MJ and profaning the Torah. Some want to no longer associate as a “Messianic Jew,” but most want to redeem the name by confronting misconceptions, bad theologies, anti-semetic fears, and ignorant assumptions by doing what they can do in their spheres of influence, while at the same time, keeping in mind that it is more important to mature in and do Torah than to teach it, as that concept is emphasized in Pirkei Avot; and as we keep Torah, we will then also be able to teach it and make more disciples of Yeshua Rabbeinu Moshicheinu
If anything, when you Daven today, when it comes to the benediction concerning teshuvah, please remember us. <<<<
Thats something I couldnt argue with!!
The task currently has been for us to grow our numbers by approaching individuals as we can, reeducating them one by one. Often we have been rebuffed by current established MJ leadership,<<<<
From what I see there are two different issues they object to. One is the Torah observant issue. The other is the involvement of non Jews. There is a group out there ( I think we know who they are) who in principle say that they agree with you about point one but not about point two. Paradoxically they use point two as a starting point for their own “conversion” process which has not seen the light of a transparant open discussion and doesnt pass the sniff test. I have heard that they use concerns about Jewish identity as their grounds for objecting to point two. Yet they dont seem to have the same concerns about the MJ leaders who violate point one. If you dialogue with these people you can quote at least this one biological Jew as saying that I think the former are far more problematic to Jewish survival than the people like yourselves who disagree on point two. And you can challenge them to use the same energy to take on the MJ leaders who are anti rabbinic that they put into their various disputes about point two which I see on various MJ leadership sites and blogs. I personally think their opposition on point two is a straw man which prevents the proper focus on point one.
If anything, when you Daven today, when it comes to the benediction concerning teshuvah, please remember us.<<<<<
I think we all can agree that Deut 30 calls Jews and Christians alike to Teshuvah and is in my opinion a great place for dialogue. Given that we are moving towards Elul I think it a good time for everyone to examine their individual consicences and see how this applies. I promise to remember you. I appreciate your heart in this matter.
We are at a point now where we still must respect their title, even if they want to be called “rabbi,” but this does not mean that we honor anything they do which contradicts the Torah<<<<<<
Religious Jews are extremely careful about partipitating in joing religious exercises with
“rabbis” who they believe are not Torah faithful. If indeed you believe these MJ “rabbis” are guilty of foisting “a grossly clear abomination and profanation of the Torah” (and I agree ) it would not be consistant with Judaism to honor their title, engage in public worship settings in which they officiate, or to participate in umbrella organizations which also besotow those titles on them. The exception would be for limited purposes ( support of Israel, general welfare of the community etc) and in all instances care would be taken to emphasize that no recognition of their spiritual authority is implied. I fail to see how you and others who respect Torah and Mitzvos can take any other stand.
“Kindness to the wicked ends in cruelty to the righteous”
It’s adding to the Torah, a grossly clear abomination and profanation of the Torah<<<
We are at a point now where we still must respect their title, even if they want to be called “rabbi,”<<<<<
Please explain to me how these are at all compatible.
I didn’t say anything about participating under the roof of their services - I was only referencing the point that it would be the equivalent of calling a Catholic priest, “Father,” or as we would an religious leader by their title, whether we agreed with it or not. They aren’t our rabbis, nor our Fathers, but it is still an accordance of respect with their current position, even if we judge them to be grossly profane in their leadership.
We are far too small to make the kind of stand you think we should be making. No one submits to our authority who doesn’t want to, and we wouldn’t be able effect any means of excommunication that would be of any worthwhile discipline if we did. We would only separate ourselves more from Messianic Judaism, when in fact the goal of many of us is to re-educate it back to the truth, and cause others to make teshuvah so that a greater mass of people will be able to make a difference in the movement and have it aim for true Torah observance. This is the more painful and difficult route, but I and others believe it to be the most fruitful.
I didn’t say anything about participating under the roof of their services <<<<<<<
Do you particpate in MJA UMJC Hasheyvenu or the Rabbinic Council? If not, I guess ok.
- I was only referencing the point that it would be the equivalent of calling a Catholic priest, “Father,” or as we would an religious leader by their title, whether we agreed with it or not. They aren’t our rabbis, nor our Fathers, but it is still an accordance of respect with their current position, even if we judge them to be grossly profane in their leadership.<<<<<
Of course this is a reasonable position.
We are far too small to make the kind of stand you think we should be making. No one submits to our authority who doesn’t want to, and we wouldn’t be able effect any means of excommunication that would be of any worthwhile discipline if we did. <<<<<<<<<
I never said anything about excommunication. I am talking about making ideas out of bounds not people.
Hope that clarifies.
We would only separate ourselves more from Messianic Judaism, when in fact the goal of many of us is to re-educate it back to the truth, and cause others to make teshuvah so that a greater mass of people will be able to make a difference in the movement and have it aim for true Torah observance. This is the more painful and difficult route, but I and others believe it to be the most fruitful.
Do you particpate in MJA UMJC Hasheyvenu or the Rabbinic Council? If not, I guess ok. <<<<
No we don’t. At all. We quote some of their material, but only as a third-party reference. We were actually setup in response to them, since they are a closed group. We at JeruslaemCouncil.org saw a need for a platform which was more inclusive for debate and discussion between Messianics which could also be a voice for those lay people in the Messianic movement to be heard, including the small minority of orthodox Messianic Jews that I and the majority of the volunteers at JerusalemCouncil.org represent.
I am talking about making ideas out of bounds not people. <<<<
Understood. In that case, yes we agree, and yes we denounce as “Messianic Jewish” anyone who claims to be a rabbi who teaches against the Torah of God.
- I was only referencing the point that it would be the equivalent of calling a Catholic priest, “Father”<<<<<<
In our time any Catholic priest who publically taught what these “rabbis” teach about Judaism would get a talking to from their bishop. Catholic priests dont presume to tell Jewish people how to be Jewish. And they dont call themselves “rabbis”. I think there needs to be a public voice to protect vulnerable Jews.
I hate to say it. I am beginning to understand the anti missionary pov more and more lately.
since they are a closed group. <<<<<<<
Yes that is a puzzling one isnt it? They claim that they too are small and vulnerable and subject to unjust attacks but they will dialogue and exchange papers on just about any topic with just about anyone. Except with Jews about Judaism.
We at JeruslaemCouncil.org saw a need for a platform which was more inclusive for debate and discussion between Messianics which could also be a voice for those lay people in the Messianic movement to be heard, including the small minority of orthodox Messianic Jews<<<<<
Good move. Yashe Koach. Thank you. I for one am grateful.
Hope more people hear about you.
they will dialogue and exchange papers on just about any topic with just about anyone. Except with Jews about Judaism<<<<
We at JC also exist to act as a (and hopefully the) dialogue between Messianic Jews and greater Judaism, so you won’t find the volunteers here ignoring requests for dialogue. I think there are many issues we agree on, and our goal has been to know our stuff rather than just spout out what we’ve heard others say.
We are far too small<<<<<<
Im sure that is the case among “leadership”. It would not surprise me if squirreled away in the movement by ones and twos are the disaffected Torah true Jews who were marginalized for being too Jewish. These folks may have returned to Judaism, or joined up with anti missionaries. The internet is a potent means of reaching such people. Perhaps you can set up a platform for them to tell their stories in one of your forums. I would be happy to share my experiences.
By all means, we’d love to provide that platform. I hope our current forum structure allows that. If you have suggestions on how we can improve our delivery of service to meet our vision of reaching out to all Messianic Jews, especially those of the orthodox Torah-observant kind, let us know.
In my experience, however, I have found most of them to be either secluded on their own, absorbed into a traditional Jewish synagogue (assuming they keep quiet about their Messianic faith, which many have to at this current juncture), or have gone on the extreme end of denying Messiah Yeshua entirely (and from our perspective, it’s because they weren’t grounded in what we would call Torah fundamentals).
I think your forums are excellent. If I might add a suggestion, perhaps a forum for people ( not necessarily orthodox) but what I would call normative Jews to exchange their experiences publically about the above groups. I think it might worry those of a missionary mind and those in the church who fund them how many Jews have left and have been alienated because of the sanctimonious arrogance of MJ institutions.
What I have in mind is a a Chabad style “inreach” for the Jews in MJ.
It might require you to narrow your focus given your commitment to extending Torah to non Jews. However if you are willing to suspend disagreements on that issue, I think you might find some takers.
I’ll bring up your suggestion with the development team.
No we don’t. At all. We quote some of their material, but only as a third-party reference.<<<<
I see you linked to some of them and that they post on your site. It isnt clear that you arent on board with them. It might be helpful to differentiate yourself a bit.
Which brings my attention to your thread about the Jews denied Kosher food in the Ohio prisons. What a disgrace! I knew a rabbi in a prison system in another state. I accompanied him to a passover celebration in a state prison. It was my observation that if any religious representative asked for a religious accomodation the state bent over backwards even when the requests were less than reasonable. This happened because of a failure of advocacy.
Instead of addressing complaints to the state, or in the process of addressing this complaint to the state, what about addressing the oversight of these “rabbis”. Who are they and what is their credentialling? It is inconceivable to me that even a conservative rabbi would argue that someone who was Jewish by Halacha should not receive accomodation for Kashrut. I am sure that Chabad would watch out for their interests.
This appears to be a very practical example of how the theoretical issues we have been discussing appear to have come back to hurt vulnerable Jews in a practical way. The cowardice of those in authority who will not address the issue of MJ “rabbis” who are not rabbis has had a direct impact on this case.
Or am I missing something?
It might require you to narrow your focus given your commitment to extending Torah to non Jews.<<<<
That shouldn’t be an issue. On a side note we do make every effort to reiterate that we believe the Torah is not for pagans and idolaters and is only for those who submit to the Torah (and thus be led to convert to Judaism).
The cowardice of those in authority who will not address the issue of MJ “rabbis” who are not rabbis has had a direct impact on this case.<<<<
I wouldn’t call it cowardice. Some of these “rabbis” are just plain ignorant at best, or anti-Torah at worst. In my personal letter to the prison system I clearly highlighted these “rabbis” as problematic to the title.
I appreciate your responses and am quite impressed.
My apologies.
If I appeared to be a bit persistant on certain issues, please chalk it up to disspointment in the response of others.
If I appeared to be a bit persistant on certain issues, please chalk it up to disspointment in the response of others.<<<<
Heh, we share the same frustration.
Heh back at you.
On a serious note I was thinking even before I saw this if shared frustration might not be a good point of dialogue between the non Jews/ converts and Jews in the movement. Even if we may have some points of divergence on significant doctrinal issues, I have said before that I think it clear that the institutional MJ movement have failed both Jews and non Jews.
Very interesting article. I have been an Orthodox Jew for most of my life and i recently came to realize that Yeshua, may His name be blessed, is the long-awaited Moshiach of Israel. It is impossible for me to keep it a secret, so naturally, I came under intense attack as soon as I declared my belief. Many of my previous friends are quite puzzled, since I spent a great deal of my time debating and ridiculing Christians and other Messianics.
I would like to blogroll you and come back often if you don’t mind…you are also welcome to visit my blog as you wish.
B’Yedidut,
Yehudi
Shalom! You are welcome to add my blog to your blog roll, as I have added yours to mine. Feel free to check out jerusalemcouncil.org where you can meet others of like mind!
Israel:
Given what he says about the intense attack he is coming under, it is probable he wont be able to find a minyan to daven with.
I dont know what Yehudi’s views on this are at this time. I also dont know if he will be participating on this blog on a regular basis. I will therefore address this to you, but of course am extremely interested in what he and other Jews think about the folloging question:
What in your opinion are the obligations of MJ institutions towards Jews like Yehudi should they be seeking such a minyan?
If you want to transfer this discussion to one of the groups, I defer to you.
What in your opinion are the obligations of MJ institutions towards Jews like Yehudi should they be seeking such a minyan? <<<<
There is no obligation if MJ institutions are absolutely convinced that a proper minyan can be one composed of converts to HaDerech. The only responsibility for the institution is simply answer Yehudi’s question honestly if the minyan he is examining is not composed of the kind of Jews he is really looking for, even if his criteria is contrary to the institution’s. The responsibility for a Jew to find a proper minyan is on himself, period. Minyanim don’t find Jews. Jews find minyanims.
The responsibility for a Jew to find a proper minyan is on himself, period. Minyanim don’t find Jews. Jews find minyanims<<<<
I know what you mean. However I dont agree that MJ has no responsibility here.
Thank G-d that isnt the Chabad viewpoint. It is pretty clear to me that they care more about the fate of Jews than MJ leadership.
I am sorry but a certain group modifies the Shema,
as well intended as this is, it is not acceptable.
The Sh’ma
(Dt 6:4) Sh’ma Yisrael, Adonai elohaynoo, Adonai ekhad.
(Ps 72:19, 145:13) Barookh shem k’vod malkhooto, l’olam vaed.
(Acts 2:36) Y’shua hu haMashiach, hu Adon hakol.
Daniel
Hmmm. The Sh’ma as you describe it is unfamiliar to me. Where is “V’yomer”?
And I am not aware of Acts 2:36 being part of the Shema. What is your source for this?
Have an Easy Fast
Israel:
I am not sure if Daniel saw this. Could you please address my question?
This concerns me greatly.
I will elaborate after you respond.
Thanks
Just A Simple Jew
I am not sure where Daniel was going with it. I don’t add anything to the Shema.
Israel:
I dont know Daniel or where he is going with this either. He appears to be talking in good faith.
What concerns me is that while he agrees that it is not appropriate to tamper with the Sh’ma, he goes on to cite as normative the altered version which I have observed in MJ congregations. Where did Daniel learn this??
This is precisely why I am concerned about this whole conversion process and the ordination of “rabbis” who are not Jewish and who know nothing about Judaism.
People going through MJ congregations of this sort are taught that THIS is the Sh’ma!
Hello! I found your website. My name is Anders Branderud and I am from Sweden.
This blog assumes the NT is correct.
Historical Scholars in leading universities (for example Bart Ehrman) agrees that NT has been redacted.
So who then was the historical Jesus?
According to world-recognized authorities in this area Ribi Yehoshua was a Pharisee (a Torah-practising Jewish group - who according to 4Q MMT practised both written and oral Torah). As the earliest church historians, most eminent modern university historians, our web site (www.netzarim.co.il) and our Khavruta (Distance Learning) texts confirm, the original teachings of Ribi Yehoshua were not only accepted by most of the Pharisaic Jewish community, he had hoards of Jewish students.
Ribi Yehoshua said:
The central tenet of Judaism is expressed in the Shema, where Tanakh states that one is required to do his or her utmost to keep Torah (which includes Halakhah as defined by the beit din in the legitimate Jewish community of Israel) and that only those who DO (not merely believe) this qualify for kipur [atonement] and resulting portion in olam ha-ba. The Torah IS the expression–and THE expression taught by Ribi Yehoshua–of how to treat both the Almighty and one’s neighbor with love. The NT, by contrast, is a post-135 C.E. Roman-Hellenist displacement counterfeit–and faith in a counterfeit Christ cannot provide “salvation.”
Ribi Yehoshua said:
“Don’t think that I came to uproot the Torah or the Neviim [prophets], but rather I came to reconcile them with the Oral Law of emet (truth). Should the heavens and ha-aretz (the land, particularly referring to Israel) exchange places, still, not even one ‘ (yod) nor one ` (qeren) of the Oral Law of Mosheh shall so much as exchange places; until it shall become that it is all being fully ratified and performed non-selectively. For whoever deletes one Oral Law from the Torah, or shall teach others such, by those in the Realm of the heavens he shall be called “deleted.” Both he who preserves and he who teaches them shall be called Ribi in the Realm of the heavens. For I tell you that unless your Tzedaqah (righteousness) is over and above that of the Sophrim (Torah Scribes), and of the [probably 'Herodian'] Rabbinic-Perushim (corrupted to “Pharisees”), there is no way you will enter into the Realm of the heavens! “
NHM 5:17-20
Finding the historical Jew, who was a Pharisee (today’s Orthodox) Ribi (see http://www.netzarim.co.il), brings, for the first time in your life, his *true* formula for profound meaning, inner happiness and purpose in your life.
From Anders Branderud
Geir Toshav, Netzarim in Ra’anana in Israel (ww.netzarim.co.il) who are followers of Ribi Yehoshua – Messiah – in Orthodox Judaism
First, your use of the term “NT” as in “New Testament” shows that you do not understand the Marcionite error laden within that label of the writings of the talmidim of Yeshua - or perhaps you do, since Marcion promoted the heresy that the vengeful God of the “Old Testament” was defeated by the God of mercy of the “New Testament” - which is a two-god, polytheistic attempt at twisting the scriptures around. Based on that reasoning, one could just as well as dismiss the Torah in favor of the Neviim v’Ketuvim, yet that too would promote a dualistic, two-god polytheistic error on the scale that the Roman Catholic church has done for nearly sixteen hundred years.
Second, the latter Writings of the talmidim of Yeshua, part of the Ketuvim, are part of the TaNaKh, and though your desire for teshuvah is commendable, I believe it is in error when you assume that the Writings of the talmidim of Yeshua fail the test for all scripture: the Torah. Bart Erhman has no more authority on the legitimacy of the Writings than does a 5 year old child of pagan parents, especially when he has no working knowledge of the Torah and the standard for scholarship that it lays out for us all.
As you rightly stated, the Shema is the commandment that when one keeps, they are guaranteed a place in the World to Come, as Yeshua said, “And I know His commandment is eternal life.” That “commandment” is the entirety of the Shema, and consequently the entire Torah - it is all one commandment, and we are to choose it over death. Consequently this includes the commandment to not be in rebellion against the one who HaShem has put his name in, and we both believe that person is Yeshua. This also includes the command to call upon the name of HaShem - the Promised Seed of which Eve looked to Seth to be but was not, by which all are saved if they do call upon the name of HaShem. These words are our life, and HaShem is our life. That the two are synonymous is obvious - and this is the Messiah.
Erhman dismisses the concept of atonement, since he is unfamiliar with the Torah’s teaching of the first sacrifice ever made in the Torah - that of the covering of Adam and Eve because of their sin, which did nothing for the eternal life they lost (and which HaShem commanded a blessing over them just prior), it did not guarantee their resurrection to life in the World to Come. Instead the Promise Seed is given as the expectation of the covering, and this before HaShem makes skins for them - teaching us that that sacrifice points to Messiah. He renews the Covenant with them as a result, and by definition that is when the “new” Covenant began.
I am a Chassidic Orthodox Messianic Jew, and I find no Torahful reason to dismiss the Writings of the talmidim of Yeshua as they are transmitted to us today, and I look forward to understanding what are your Torahful reasons for dismissing them so easily.
Although this commentary on this blog is concerning Messianic Jewish conversion, I look forward to your participation in the forum on a tangential discussion concerning your theologies at http://jerusalemcouncil.org/midrash/
Israel
Thank you for assisting Anders in finding a more appropriate thread to advance his views. I would like to get back to a less esoteric and more practical discussion concerning the integrity of Jewish practice within MJ.
I have serious concerns that Jews within MJ are learning a practice that is not normatively Jewish. In some instances they are being coerced. For instance one leader reputed in some circles to be an Apostle has publically written that Jews MUST include such an explicit reference to Yeshua within their recitation of the Sh’ma. I dont know if Daniel is “in submission to” this leader, but many Jewish people are and I believe that they are being misled.
Israel:
I apologize for multiple posts. I do feel obligated to point out the relevance of the above to this topic. I will summarize and wait for comments:
My concern is that we already are seeing a distortion of normative Jewish practice. The Sh’ma is only one example of a widespread problem. We are talking about areas of Halacha that pretty much the entire Jewish world has agreed upon for 2000 years.
MJ has already lost a large part of the sense of what it means to be Jewish by this process. It is increasing and not decreasing despite the rhetoric of those who talk of a “Mature Messianic Judaism”.
I fail to see how the introduction of large numbers of non Jews who have converted to “Messianic Judiasm” and who thereby become eligible for the “Messianic Rabbinate” by taking a few correspondance can but exacerbate this problem.
The issue of Messianic Conversion is by necessity tied to the issue of Jewish identity and practice. For example the above distortion of the Sh’ma is being pushed by an individual who claims spiritual authority within MJ but who would not be considered Jewish within any branch of Judaism! It would be serious if it were not serious. Non Jews demanding “submission” by Jews to their interpretation of 2000 year old Jewish practice! I can think of no precedent in any other religion. Even the Catholic Church refrains from commenting on the Sh’ma!
As long as the Jewish status and “rabbinic ordination” of these people is recognized without comment, it is absurd to talk of MJ as being any sort of “Judaism”. And it is absurd to talk of any sort of “Messianic Halacha”, “Rabbinic Council” “Conversion” “Torah Observance” or any of a a variety of terms which lose all meaning as applied within the current institutional framework of MJ.
Comments and discussion welcome!
>As long as the Jewish status and “rabbinic ordination” of these people is recognized without comment, it is absurd to talk of MJ as being any sort of “Judaism”.
You can be assured that such are not recognized by us or those affiliated us, “without comment.”
We of course are more than happy to “comment” on their recognition. But I hope you understand the propriety expected of calling an ordained minister, “Minister” or “Reverand,” a Catholic priest as “Father,” or leader of a church, “Pastor,” and even the claimed rabbi of a Torah-breaking synagogue (God forbid), “Rabbi” out of respect for the position they hold over their own flock, since we would expect nothing less from them on the matter. But “without comment” is absurd, and you will find many “comments” on the Jerusalem Council forum, or from us if asked about our recognition of their authority beyond their own congregation. Such “comments” as we write even have denounced their right to claim representation for all Messianic Judaism - such as in the case concerning Messianic Jewish prisoners and kosher meals, where the warden was told by “Messianic” “rabbis” that they don’t have to keep kosher - which is patently profane.
But I hope you understand the propriety expected of calling an ordained minister, “Minister” or “Reverand,” a Catholic priest as “Father,” or leader of a church, “Pastor,” and even the claimed rabbi of a Torah-breaking synagogue (God forbid), “Rabbi” out of respect for the position they hold over their own flock<<<
I understand the difficulty. However its not quite analogous. Catholic priests do not make judgments about Jewish ordination. Jewish authorities do not make judgments about Catholic practice or Catholic teaching except as it has an impact on Jews. There is therefore a reasonable propriety in agreeing to differ respectfully on matters of faith while respecting the community of faith as such.
However the situation changes when one claims to be one and the same religion. For instance the Catholic Church does not recognize the legitimacy of “Traditionalist Catholicism”. The Church and its representatives make it quite clear to the faithful that “Traditionalist Catholicism” is not Roman Catholicism, and that any “priesthood” or other religious hierarchy it might claim is illegitimate precisely insofar as it claims to be Roman Catholic. ( I hardly think they would quibble about the legitimacy of non Catholic priesthoods)
It is because these Messianic Jewish “rabbis” claim to be 1) Jews and 2) Rabbis within Messianic Judaism and to have “spiritual authority” over Jews and Jewish practice, that it is obligatory for any MJ “Rabbi” wanting to have legitimacy to draw a clear line that places such individuals outside the fold.
Regarding inserting or adding to the Shema, I was at a congregation over the weekend and we all came to a unanimous decision on the issue. Read 3.1.2 of the halacha document:
3.1 Shema
3.1.2 Lordship of Messiah Yeshua (hu Adon)
http://jerusalemcouncil.org/component/content/article/74-31-shema.html
According to orthodox halacha, one is not allowed to insert any prayer between Borchu and the start of Amidah<<
I applaud your reasoning and your process. I would add, lest anyone think you are being specially stringent in this matter that it is not a question of “orthodox” Halacha. As far as I know this is Jewish practice universally.
The Sh’ma as traditionally defined consists of three sections.
Deuteronomy 6:4–9, 11:13-21, and Numbers 15:37–41
These are of a unity. Each summarizes and important principle. I wish to point out
that the “Hu Adon” reference while admirable is NOT commanded scripturally in this
context nor is it in fact a scriptural reference but is merely a wording
invented by Messianic Jewish leaders unknown. The insertion of this very akward
wording in the midst of a unified